Winter Camp XXIV - 2000

Currently, we plan to have Winter Camp XXIV and that's close to all we know other than the following:


The Registration Form is now on-line!

The pre-planning meeting will be held on Thursday, October 26th at Steve Donohue's. We'll start at 7:00 pm or so and our Agenda is on line; send suggestions to Steve or Mike.
Minutes are now available.
The planning meeting will be held on Friday, November 24 at Steve Donohue's. We'll start that one at about 1:00pm and it'll roll through dinner so come ready for pizza

Potential Themes

Theme Last Modified
Clue: The Movie Discussion: Sunday, 16-Sep-2012 01:21:17 EDT
Activities: Sunday, 16-Sep-2012 01:21:17 EDT
Meals: Sunday, 16-Sep-2012 01:21:17 EDT
Dune Discussion: Sunday, 16-Sep-2012 01:21:19 EDT
Activities: Sunday, 16-Sep-2012 01:21:20 EDT
Meals: Sunday, 16-Sep-2012 01:21:20 EDT
Mars Attacks Discussion: Sunday, 16-Sep-2012 01:22:58 EDT
Activities: Sunday, 16-Sep-2012 01:22:58 EDT
Meals: Sunday, 16-Sep-2012 01:22:59 EDT
The Matrix Discussion: Sunday, 16-Sep-2012 01:22:59 EDT
Activities: Sunday, 16-Sep-2012 01:22:59 EDT
Meals: Sunday, 16-Sep-2012 01:22:59 EDT
Monster Movie Discussion: Sunday, 16-Sep-2012 01:23:02 EDT
Activities: Sunday, 16-Sep-2012 01:23:02 EDT
Meals: Sunday, 16-Sep-2012 01:23:02 EDT
Mission Impossible Discussion: Sunday, 16-Sep-2012 01:23:01 EDT
Activities: Sunday, 16-Sep-2012 01:23:01 EDT
Meals: Sunday, 16-Sep-2012 01:23:01 EDT
Runaway Discussion: Sunday, 16-Sep-2012 01:23:22 EDT
Activities: Sunday, 16-Sep-2012 01:23:22 EDT
Meals: Sunday, 16-Sep-2012 01:23:22 EDT
Scary Movie Discussion: Sunday, 16-Sep-2012 01:23:23 EDT
Activities: Sunday, 16-Sep-2012 01:23:23 EDT
Meals: Sunday, 16-Sep-2012 01:23:24 EDT
Spaceballs Discussion: Sunday, 16-Sep-2012 01:23:25 EDT
Activities: Sunday, 16-Sep-2012 01:23:26 EDT
Meals: Sunday, 16-Sep-2012 01:23:25 EDT
Tombstone Discussion: Sunday, 16-Sep-2012 01:23:27 EDT
Activities: Sunday, 16-Sep-2012 01:23:27 EDT
Meals: Sunday, 16-Sep-2012 01:23:27 EDT
Real Genius Discussion: Sunday, 16-Sep-2012 01:23:20 EDT
Activities: Sunday, 16-Sep-2012 01:23:21 EDT
Meals: Sunday, 16-Sep-2012 01:23:21 EDT

Check out what everyone else is saying:
E-mail addresses and names are not guaranteed to be who they say they are.
That being said, we should tell you that the webmaster can tell who said what.

On Saturday, 25-Nov-00 13:15:02 EST, Dave said
Matrix Day should get a pseudo-update today or tomorrow.

On Saturday, 25-Nov-00 13:02:47 EST, Steve D. said
Okay, so we did miss a couple of things yesterday which are keeping me from posting the minutes. I need to get a schedule for Spaceballs Day and Matrix Day. I could also use some more info on what the meals and activities are so we can post at least some description for each activity before the event comes.
It would be cool if each activity that actually made the list was defined using the web page activity thing for that day - it would make the whole thing much easier for me (which is key <G>).

On Monday, 20-Nov-00 15:00:18 EST, Steve D. said
I won't bore you with all the details but my weekend availability between now and Winter Camp has just been greatly diminished. I've also been told that I need to get a passport in time to fly to London for several days in early December. Between these two things, I probably will not be able to advise any of our eventual theme days. If someone else would like to step up to the plate and consider helping with either Monster Movie or Runaway days, now's the time.

On Thursday, 16-Nov-00 17:31:43 EST, Jeff said
Re Binders: I thought about trying to make some arrangements to get them done in new Jersey, but it seemed complicated. Perhaps we should get our own silk screen.

On Thursday, 16-Nov-00 16:37:09 EST, Lou said
I might be able to get the Binders printed up here. I am going to bring my binder in tomorrow and get an idea of what it would cost. The possibility exist that if we provide the binders and it is a low amount I can possibly get them printed free of charge. I will know more tomorrow.

On Thursday, 16-Nov-00 16:18:44 EST, Steve D. said
We're going to talk patches tonight. Should have an answer by the end of the evening.
Binders are more of a problem - my low quote so far is 3.77 each for a minimum of 100 binders. Prices beyond that have ranged from 4.00 (only slightly more) to 10.00 all for a minimum 100. For any less than that, the numbers are untouchable.

On Tuesday, 14-Nov-00 14:57:49 EST, Steve Clark said
Patches are cool. I like patches.

On Tuesday, 14-Nov-00 00:20:49 EST, Steve D. said
If we're going to commission a patch, we need to do it this week. The only design I've seen has been the colorized version of our logo that Jeff sent in the first place.
Are we going to do something or wait for the 25th edition of Winter Camp to issue a patch?

On Thursday, 02-Nov-00 20:58:14 EST, Steve D said
I dunno, I've added a few, but the rest of you seem strangely silent.

On Wednesday, 01-Nov-00 11:45:48 EST, John said
Hey, where are all the ideas?

On Tuesday, 31-Oct-00 00:42:40 EST, Steve D. said
Hmm. Make that the Fellowship. My day since 6 has basically been
6:30 - 8:00 sleep.
8:00 - 9:15 fool around on the internet.
9:15 - 12:30 sleep.
1:00 - ? sleep.

On Monday, 30-Oct-00 21:19:26 EST, Steve D. said
Sorry for the delay in posting minutes for the meeting; I'm not feeling well today - I think I must have caught a cold or something at the Ordeal.
I'll definitely try to put something up tomorrow.

On Monday, 30-Oct-00 10:41:54 EST, Lou said
I have about 28 CD's and a whole box of business card that are going to be thrown away that can be used for any event.

On Friday, 27-Oct-00 13:49:32 EDT, Steve D. said
There appears to have been a bug in the various theme days, but it's now fixed. Coming soon will be the ability to add an activity or meal by theme (I think).

On Friday, 27-Oct-00 13:12:37 EDT, Steve D. said
That's pretty much exactly it. We haven't gotten to putting up the minutes yet, but we decided to have a theme for the week and then pick days related to that theme. The three top ones where Movies, War, and Decades. Attendance at the meeting was good with 9 youth and 5 adults. More details will show up when I get around to doing the minutes.
One thing we did agree on was that if someone had another movie-related idea, we'd accept it as a theme as long as they were willing to develop it.

On Friday, 27-Oct-00 12:55:31 EDT, Ron Donohue said
Cool, it looks like you guys decided on a Winter Camp goes to to the movies kind of deal. Awesome.

On Friday, 27-Oct-00 00:09:58 EDT, Steve D said
The themes are list above. More details (like leaders, etc) will be added later.

On Thursday, 26-Oct-00 12:52:19 EDT, Steve D. said
Don't forget about the meeting today. The agenda is on-line and the link to it is on this page.

On Thursday, 19-Oct-00 06:50:23 EDT, David C. Oakley said
Are you guys voting on a theme for each day or the entire time? If price has been determined then I would like to know. It is about time for a hundred meal dinner again. A winter camp patch sounds great! We should have to earn it though by doing so many events. I have been practicing my skills for "Outdoor Soccer" and still wear my Dr. Seuss hat sometimes. I will give a big pitch to roundtable leaders at the Nov.9th mtg and need some facts to present to them to build attendance and excitement towards our cool Mahican chapter in O-A. Talk to ya soon.

On Wednesday, 11-Oct-00 13:29:24 EDT, Steve D. said
Assigned hobbies are at: The log for progress is at Preplanning is October 26 as Ron said, but we're going to try to start at 7:00. The actual planning is on November 24, starting at noon, also at my place. If we run true to form, we'll identify some "candidate themes" on the 26th, then pick real themes based on the designs of the theme coordinators we pick on the 24th. If it was up to me, we'd have one theme, but it's not so I don't know what we'll have.

On Wednesday, 11-Oct-00 13:08:22 EDT, Ron Donohue said
Dave, I do not know most of the stuff you asked, but I do know that there is going to be a pre-planning meeting on Thursday, October 26th at Steve Donohue's house( at 7:30pm in the evening. This was posted on the wall on October 3. I think that most of the other questions will be answered at that meeting, as the group works together to decide what they want to do this year. I do not know if anyone posted the hobbies that were assigned for htis year. Mark Bollman (who I am sure will see this) is probably your best bet for tracking down that information. Hopefully, he or Steve will see this and make arrangements to post the information.

On Wednesday, 11-Oct-00 12:39:25 EDT, David C. Oakley said
Is there a date for a pre-planning meeting? Has anyone posted the hobby draw for 2000-XXIV? Do we have a theme for the entire time or each day? Great job team on the third place finish in soccer at NOAC-must be all that cold-weather training from wintercamp!!! PLEASE PRINT RESPONSES-I have a bunch of youth asking me these questions-Thanks! Great idea to have patch requirements and patches made up.

On Saturday, 23-Sep-00 14:22:43 EDT, Steve Clark said
He is looking towards early November, caz he has a lot of band stuff in October. He thinks he'll know soon though.

On Saturday, 23-Sep-00 11:39:28 EDT, Tom said
Ok I talked with Q, he's not sure when the pre-planning meeting is going to be but he is planning to have one.

On Thursday, 21-Sep-00 17:18:47 EDT, Jeff said
I would suggest that if a patch is to be used, it be ordered by 11/15 to assure delivery.

On Thursday, 21-Sep-00 12:28:47 EDT, Steve said
If we choose to do a flap/totem style patch, we need permission from the Lodge. I have not heard, nor do I believe, we need such permission otherwise meaning that if we do a bottom for the regular lodge flap or make a patch of our own we're fine.
I think what is now needed is for interested individuals to create prospective patch designs for us to choose from. Rather than limit creativity, I would say that anything goes at this point. Once we have one or more designs (and some cost estimates), we'll put it to a vote at the planning meeting (or maybe the pre-planning meeting).

On Wednesday, 20-Sep-00 18:50:36 EDT, Jeff said
My name disappeared from the last post.

On Wednesday, 20-Sep-00 18:27:10 EDT, said
I would suggest not using any chapter or lodge name, as Winter Camp may outlast them. The chapter names went from Downriver to South Parks back to Downriver to Mahican and could change again if chapters are realigned with districts. Of course, in my opinion, the lodge name is currently misspelled and would look odd.

As to permission to create a patch, I would suggest that when the lodge chief approved Winter Camp in 1977 it became a fully sanctioned O-A event and it could create recognition and souvenirs consistent with good taste. However, a patch that resembles a lodge flap is improper unless issued by the lodge. I have seen the full pocket patches which fit under a lodge flap. They look gawdy and attract attention away from the left pocket, which bears the more important insignia. For more information consult the BSA Insignia Guide #33066, available at your local Scout Shop.

On Wednesday, 20-Sep-00 09:46:36 EDT, Steve Clark said
Trading....ewww......well I guess if it helps make money for Wintercamp, and maybe possibly for the chapter it is other news does anyone know what Q's date for the pre-planning meeting is as of yet? I am too lazy to call him (since he's in school and has to work tonight anyway)

On Tuesday, 19-Sep-00 23:49:31 EDT, Steve D. said
This is the design Jeff sent me:
Patch Design
I'm not sure what the real dimensions would be, the picture is about 3 3/4" wide by 2 5/8" tall. He suggested two borders; 50 gold mylar versions and 150 silver for trading. Other designs would, of course, be welcome. He seemed to think if we had a decision before Thanksgiving we could get a loom run and reasonable costs.

On Tuesday, 19-Sep-00 23:43:34 EDT, Steve D. said
Actually, I was hoping Jeff might be able to provide us with that kind of info. As far as patch contents go, I don't think there's anything we need to avoid - what H said was that we could probably do whatever we want, as long as the executive board approved it. I would say if we use the Lodge Name, we'd have to use Migisi Opawgan, so if it was up to me, I'd probably use Lodge 162 instead - I'm not a fan of the changed spelling, but it is what our Lodge decided, so I personally wouldn't use Mi-Gi-Si O-Paw-Gan anymore. I'm guessing we'd want something 50% + embroidered; I don't know about colors. If we just went with a patch, Jeff had suggested one; if we went with totem/pocket combo, we'd need to do something else...

On Tuesday, 19-Sep-00 22:40:52 EDT, Dave said
Hmmm...that being said, perhaps you should post some guidelines as to what's realistic in patch design. (e.g. colors [#,type,etc},stitching,chenille or not,etc.) Since it's gonna be, essentially, a one-off, do we care if it cost $8.00 and has 47 colors? What's the suggested text to NOT include: Mi-Gi-Si O-Paw-Gan? (or whatever the popular & incorrect rendition is now), DAC, etc. (probably some folks will get touchy if we have somethings on it. Thoughts anyone?

On Monday, 18-Sep-00 11:56:54 EDT, Steve D. said
I spoke with H this morning in connection with the newsletter and asked him about it. He expressed a general disdain for wearing event flaps (like the NOAC contingent flap) after the event, but was otherwise open to the idea. He didn't seem to have a problem with us creating our own flap patch as long as we got approval from the Executive Team before we did it.
I guess from there, it's just a practical matter - how much will it cost, can we create a cool design, and do we really want to do it. I don't think the Exec team will have too much trouble with it, especially since it opens the door for them to (potentially) create their own totems for use as fundraisers to to commemorate some event (I'm thinking about the Wapaneu and the Pedro Trail specifically, but I'm sure other chapters might have their own ideas)

On Monday, 18-Sep-00 09:30:52 EDT, Tom said
But why should we make a Chapter Event patch available to the whole lodge? It just doesn't make any sense. What's the lodge going to say? "No, you can make a patch out of your own chapter funds for your chapter event"? Or better yet, if someone privately bankrolled the patch, what will the Lodge say? Probably nothing.
I've seen plenty of people over the years wear un-official patches on their uniforms, I've seen Troops wear troop-only patches on their uniforms and so on. So what if we want to make a patch that says "Mahican Chapter - Winter Camp XXIV 2000" or "Winter Camp - 1977 - Doomsday". The Lodge isn't going to waste the time in a meeting for something as minor as this. As a matter of fact, I think the biggest reaction we'll get from members of the Lodge is "Hey, cool patch. Have an extra one for my collection?"

On Monday, 18-Sep-00 06:25:16 EDT, Steve Clark said
That what I suggested to him when we had this dicussion a few months back. He suggested another idea. We could submit a lodge flap design (like a top) and have that available to everyone in the lodge, then we make the bottom as a fund raiser patch for our chapter.

On Sunday, 17-Sep-00 23:29:04 EDT, Steve D. said
That's too many rules. If we can't make our own flap, then what's the point of just a bottom? Might as well stick to making just a "regular" patch.

On Sunday, 17-Sep-00 20:41:32 EDT, Steve Clark said
From what I understand from Joel, we have to take the patch design in front of the lodge exec board and have them vote on it. However, two problems arise, they will not vote for the trader patch unless it is open for all lodge members to purchase (because that is lodge procedure), and then therefore they won't vote for the participant patch unless again it is open for the whoel lodge to purchase. A way around this is to make a bottom to our lodge flap and have that be a chapter fundraiser (we have two a year). The fundraiser has to also be approved by the lodge executive board. The spoof patch wouldn't get approcal from the lodge executive board because the arguement would be that it isn't an official bsa patch therefore we can't wear it. I don't feel that a spoof flap would be approved as a fundraiser either because the arguement would be that people might be tempted to wear it. I think our best bet is to do it the fundraiser route with a bottom patch.

On Sunday, 17-Sep-00 19:09:51 EDT, Steve D. said
Okay, so we had some talk about making a patch before. Having seen all these crazy two-part flap sets that our Lodge has been putting out, I'm wondering about a Winter Camp flap patch or patch set. I don't know what the Lodge Rules might be, but obviously, we could do it as a "spoof" flap if we didn't use the Migisi logo or name; otherwise, I imagine we'd need to get permission from the Lodge Executive Board (probably not too hard a task) before we did it.
I also don't know how much impact this might have on costs, but I'll bet someone out there knows.
We could probably still do two editions, a particpant award version and an adult version. I don't know if we'd want to consider making the adult one some kind of trader or not. I know some people are opposed to that sort of thing, but if we had a cool design, we might be able to make some cash for either Winter Camp or the chapter.

On Friday, 11-Aug-00 14:16:12 EDT, Steve D. said
Okay, based on no one else stating a preference, I had the service center change our cabins so we're now looking at High Point, Beaver Creek, and Clearwater. The Council web site is inaccurate according to the camping book - thus far we're the only ones in camp and the page showed Trout Lake as being signed up to OA but didn't show Beaver Creek, which is what spurred my original call.

On Thursday, 13-Jul-00 07:34:21 EDT, Lou said
I know when I was working camp staff (at Cole) I really didn't have time or the inclination to worry about stuff outside of my immediate surroundings. I'm not sure what Q. is doing but I pretty sure Gus is keeping him busy. I'm heading up there tonight so I'll see and let yous know.

On Wednesday, 12-Jul-00 20:09:20 EDT, Steve Clark said
Yeah it would be...I will talk to Mike about this too.

On Wednesday, 12-Jul-00 15:30:55 EDT, Steve D. said
Paying those startup costs might be a good use for our excess funds from last year.

On Wednesday, 12-Jul-00 15:11:41 EDT, Steve Clark said
So then the only downside to this is that this year, the participants would have to eat the cost of getting a starting supply of the patches? Any idea how much these things would cost?

On Monday, 10-Jul-00 20:55:37 EDT, Jeff said
Actually when I made up the list, I was attempting to answer the question "What should a newcomer get out of WC?" I think there are some essentials that should be there for everyone. As to options I would suggest that a format like the merit badge program be used. Example: Rather than do 6 of the follwing 15, do one of the following 5a, 5b, 5c, 5d, or 5e. This way the participant might be required to bake a loaf a bread, but might choose from taking a history test, changing the Donohue pot handles, or not making hamburgers for his "traditions" choice.

As to adult requirements, here is a suggestion in line with the adult role in the O-A. There should be no requirements.

The award should be the Winter Camp patch which could be made with two colors of borders. One patch would be the souvernir variety and available to all participants for purchase. The other should represent the participation award and be issued as one per life to each youth (under 21) who achieves the requirements henceforth.

On Monday, 10-Jul-00 15:05:31 EDT, Steve Clark said
I agree...I can also take these suggestions to Mike Q next week when I take my troop up to Cole for the week (scary th ought for eveyone, because I am my troop's advancement chairman, and because the scoutmaster can't go due to going to Philmont with our older boys later in the month while I am at NOAC, I am in charge....isn't that scary...)

On Monday, 10-Jul-00 13:27:12 EDT, Steve D. said
Should there be different requirements for adults? Like "Be noticed keeping your mouth shut by another adult when the youth do something of which you don't approve, but which is not inherently dangerous or immoral"? So the kids listen to rock music and our local acid rock detractors just grin and bear it - that sort of thing? Maybe the adults should have more requirements of the "help a youth..." variety.

On Monday, 10-Jul-00 12:30:17 EDT, Ron said
I also like the idea of making the patch a measure of current, as opposed to past, participation and activity. I think that Steve has made a good point, in establishing a broad menu of qualifying activities. Perhaps we might put them into various categories and requiring some number from each category. Just thinkingo ut loud.

On Monday, 10-Jul-00 11:00:51 EDT, Steve D. said
I think we should add a few more and then make it a do at least 10 of the following 15. I also think we should make it mandatory that all requirements be completed after the inception of the award, lest all the geezers show up with one already.

On Sunday, 09-Jul-00 21:46:39 EDT, Jeff said
We should have a Winter Camp participation patch. Here are some proposed requirements:

Winter Camp Participation Patch Requirements

1. Bake a loaf of bread.
2. Help set-up and run an event.
3. Sleep outside at least one night.
4. Write a short story or an article for the WC News.
5. Perform an improvement project for WC.
6. Participate in at least 4 hours of camp service.
7. Pass the WC Basic History exam.
8. Surf the WC Universe.
9. Climb the highest peak in D-A.
10. Participate in a blind hike.
11. Set a personal WC goal and achieve it.

All requirements can be done at a single Winter Camp.

On Sunday, 09-Jul-00 21:33:20 EDT, Jeff said
To continue the discussion of May, I think the third cabin is necessary although it could be High Point. I like the the name better. We should do the 162-dish banquet in the dining hall. Following the banquet 4 restaurant owners should divide the leftovers to use to provide the menus for the following day. The restaurants will provide the meals and employ the winter campers the following day. The Winter Campers can use their earnings to buy food at the various establishments. I propose the following:

Winter Camp Restaurants

Bollmano's - Take out and delivery service only
Clearwater Tavern - Snack bar and beverages, fast food
BC Buffet - Standard assortment
Highpoint Inn - Dinner service only, proper attire required

On Thursday, 11-May-00 16:53:50 EDT, Tim said
I like the idea of a second bunk surcharge. I also agree if there isn't anyone at lang for a long period of time I don't think we should keep much stuff there.

On Wednesday, 10-May-00 13:36:19 EDT, Steve D. said
Beaver Creek is $200. Clearwater and Lang are each $90, although that could change if they really have updated Lang to somehow be a 16 man cabin. I don't think they could have, because I'm pretty sure it's the exact same floorplan as Clearwater, but the registration book said it was a 16. The registrar and I agreed it was a typo, but she was going to validate it.
I don't think I'd want to put too much of my stuff up at Lang if no one were staying there. I think it could prove too tempting for our fellow scouts.

On Wednesday, 10-May-00 12:02:32 EDT, Tom said
Interesting suggestion Ron. I kinda like it. It would be a nice place to set up those indoor activities that take up the space in BC. But I have a feeling that we'll see the same ammount of people, probably even more and Lang will be housing people. Even then it still could be labeled as The Winter Camp Recreational Center.

On Wednesday, 10-May-00 10:41:03 EDT, Ron Donohue said
What is the incremental cost assoicated with the third cabin? I would also like to know if there is any way to back out if we don't get the people. If we don't get enough, maybe we should keep it anyways as an annex or recreation center. It might be worth some amount of money just to reduce the probability of anyone camping anywhere near us.

On Wednesday, 10-May-00 09:53:55 EDT, Tom said
Big question is, which adults will move to Lang?

On Tuesday, 09-May-00 13:43:10 EDT, Steve said
Been a long time since anyone had anything to say. Anyhow, in light of last year's attendance and evaluations, I made reservations today for three cabins: Beaver Creek, Clearwater, and Lang. This does establish a fairly high hurdle rate though, as the rentals, unless we work some kind of deal with Council, total at least $380. (It may be more - the book claimed Lang was a 16 rather than 12 man cabin; luckily, the lady taking our reservation didn't believe it had changed capacity either).
Even with attendance comparable to last year's that's about $10.00 a person just for cabins. Maybe we'll have to tack on a second bunk surcharge or something...

On Saturday, 04-Mar-00 18:53:34 EST, Jeff said
As I was looking at the menu from Winter Camp III, I realized that we had some grand meals in years past. I think its time to have a super banquet. Now with 40 people attending camp a 162 dish meal is not impossible. Every camper makes four dishes: 1 hot dish, 1 cold dish, 1 bakery item, and a surprise brought from home.

On Friday, 04-Feb-00 09:21:52 EST, Tom said
I agree with that, too Steve.

On Tuesday, 01-Feb-00 15:26:57 EST, Steve Clark said
I second that idea Steve!

On Tuesday, 01-Feb-00 12:18:08 EST, Steve D. said
Hey, what does anybody think about giving anyone who receives their brotherhood this year a few bucks off their fee for Winter Camp? I know it's “unfair” to those of who've already received their Brotherhood, but I'm not sure I care and I'm betting most of our Brotherhood-Plus members won't care either.

On Friday, 28-Jan-00 18:31:52 EST, DaveM said
As in "It's a...."

On Friday, 28-Jan-00 17:57:53 EST, John said
I agree with you Steve, which is why I posted the quote. We do somethings very well and we seem to fail on the same things year after year...I don't think there is a problem with lambasting anyone...I was sarcastic with Steve C. but we are taking that discussion offline and in private. But just so we clear, I don't agree with the lambasting in public method either..sorry BB the end does not justify the means.

On Friday, 28-Jan-00 00:33:34 EST, Steve D. said
Would that be short for "Deal with it" or "It's a deal" or some third option?

On Friday, 28-Jan-00 00:18:24 EST, DaveM said

On Thursday, 27-Jan-00 20:56:53 EST, Steve D. said
When what you've got is as successful as Winter Camp, it doesn't make sense to make wholesale changes. Before anyone starts lambasting me for that statement, think about it. Winter Camp had an attendance of 41, a record. More people spent more nights than ever before. We didn't lose any money. Most of those who went will go back next year, certainly I haven't heard anyone say they wouldn't.
Looking further back, we've had some lean years of Winter Camp, but by and large, it is the most successful event in our Lodge (I mean Lodge), particularly if you consider it against it's "competition" which would have to be events held as fellowships without any other goal (basically, only the Ordeals can give it a run for it's money in this respect). If you seriously think about it, the goal of an Ordeal is to recruit new members and well, we're not doing it like we should be.
There were 185 or so members on our chapter's roster last year. There are now about 130. That number will get better, but it probably won't hit that 180 range until after the Fall Ordeal. Basically, the Ordeals (and our Lodge) don't accomplish the membership goals they're after - most of the people are inducted and go away. Yes, there are efforts to improve that and some chapters do better than others (in fact, I think we're in that better category - we have more youth than anyone else and probably a better percentage of youth at events).
Anyhow I guess my long-winded point is this: Was everything perfect at Winter Camp XXIII? No. Was it a horrid and dismal failure? No. The bottom line is that we need to concentrate on changing things that don't work or on doing more of the things that do.
Does that mean the same things? Nope. It means we need to try to figure out what is the essence of an activity that works and then figure out how to apply that to any activity we decide to hold.
What is that essence? I don't know either, but I'm guessing if we focus on that topic, we can figure it out.
I guess what I'm saying is that John's quote works, but like most truly classic lines, it works on all kinds of levels. If we do more of what we've done that worked, we'll get more things done that work. If we focus on things that don't work, we'll get more stuff that doesn't work.
One thing I don't believe ever works is lambasting each other in print.
Don't believe me? Ask Big Bro how it worked for him.

On Thursday, 27-Jan-00 20:17:41 EST, John said
Came across this quote:
Doing more of what you've done, gets you more of what you've got.

On Thursday, 27-Jan-00 17:19:18 EST, Big Bro said
It would seem that words of more than one part may be just as hard to choose as mine.
Like the rest, I did not wish to find fault, though it seems some thought I did. My point was that we must use the past as our guide, but not dwell in it. This means a lot of things: for the old, we must not try to be the young; for the young, we must know that what has been done means much to the old; for all, we must use our past to help us plan what comes next. We can't fall in the trap of "We've done it this way for ten years, why change now" or "change for its own sake". Those were the words I meant when last I spoke.
I am glad to see that things may calm here so that we can get back to Cold Time Camp XXIV

On Thursday, 27-Jan-00 14:39:25 EST, Steve Clark said
I was just checking the posts before I left to go deal with some scout stuff..I don't have time today to email you John but I will do it tomorrow...thanks.

On Thursday, 27-Jan-00 14:24:04 EST, John said
I haven't read your private comments, but my comments weren't directed to be bitching or finger pointing, execpt that I really don't understand what Steve Clark meant (Steve C please email me and don't worry about holding back) I wish that had any of the youth really wanted/needed something they could have asked. I realize that some adults are more approachable than others, so I am trying to be more approachable..Sorry if I offended anyone, I am just trying to keep the lines of communications open (Man that sounded very BB like).

On Wednesday, 26-Jan-00 00:10:06 EST, Steve D. said
I've sent my comments on these recent postings privately. I would hope that others with similarly strong feelings in any direction will do the same. This sort of bickering and finger-pointing is of little value and won't make Winter Camp XXIV or our chapter any better.

On Wednesday, 26-Jan-00 00:01:03 EST, John said
Steve Clark, It is not the job of the adults to see that you had a good time. Remember, this is a youth run organization--if you didn't like it, well hey who was the youth in charge? The advisers role was to make sure the Camp rules, Scout Oath & Law and any applicable state and federal laws were followed...Besides what exactly would be the wrong reason for attending? To sit and relax and enjoy fellowship? I guess I just don't see where the "adults attended for the wrong reasons"...

On Tuesday, 25-Jan-00 23:24:26 EST, Big Bro said
And so, with but one post, your voice is stilled. You will have shown him though and that's what counts.

On Tuesday, 25-Jan-00 22:37:51 EST, Dave said
And I'll refrain from posting any comments any longer, as it is apparent that our "silent brother" feels that mocking is a much better course of action.

On Tuesday, 25-Jan-00 22:35:38 EST, DaveM said
Cool...another person without the ***** to attach a name. Full of myself or not, at least I attach my name, Pu$$^.

On Tuesday, 25-Jan-00 19:34:42 EST, said
Ahoweli Tschitahiteahen = He who is full of himself.

On Tuesday, 25-Jan-00 17:00:03 EST, Ahoweli Tschitahiteahen said
I guess I again would have to both ask a question and make an abbreviated statement. What was done by "...some of the adults that are there for the wrong reasons...?" that seems to bother the youth of the chapter so much. What would you suggest to them to have done differently? I suspect that there are a number of things some (but not all) of them do to add to Wintercamp's value. I am not trying to cast disparaging comments regarding you or the other youth's views, I am merely suggesting that what is done may be a question of perspective. If you think that something should have been done, then perhaps someone(probably an advisor in this case) should have discussed it at the onset, rather than wait until
weeks later to make an idle and questionable comment in a public forum. (btw: This is a good practice whether you are training a puppy, volunteering at a scount event, or managing a business.) Part of being a leader is speaking for your constituents, another is to let your views be objective, rather than reflective of hearsay and malice towards others. The individualism that each of us brings adds to the diversity you will see at camp...

On Tuesday, 25-Jan-00 15:58:55 EST, Steve Clark said
To find the answer to your question Big Bro , you only need to come to a chapter meeting and ask around. Yes, most of the youth have an opinion, or a "voice" if you will. I however, am one of the few that post here. I try to represent what a lot of them have expressed to me, however due to the fact that I am the only one sitting at my keyboard at the time I post, the consensous (sp?) is that these feelings are mine alone. (which is why I bring up the point that there is a feeling that some of the adults are there for the wrong reasons, because that's the opinion of a lot of the youth that went this last year...and yes I know what one or ones they feel this way about, but I don't feel it would be right to tell them in this forum.). To go further, I personally don't care if some adults don't feel it is my place to try and change stuff or whatever, because I personally don't care, but rather bring up the point on behalf of the youth in our chapter. I feel this is my job since they elected me their leader. Oh well if I anger some.

On Tuesday, 25-Jan-00 13:05:27 EST, Big Bro said
We must look to the past to help guide us, but not dwell in it. That is, to my mind, the test which most tries Cold Time Camp and those who come each year. Each year there is one for whom that year's Cold Time Camp is the best and he will judge the rest by that scale. What one calls the best year of camp, some might call a pale shade of the past or a good start for that which came. What one calls the worst, some might call the best. In part this is caused by Cold Time Camp and in part it is caused by our own age and role at that camp and it is changed once more by the years which have passed since that camp - for those who loved it, the bad parts fade - for those who did not, the good parts are gone. I was not at Cold Time Camp this year, but I would guess that for some, like Sean and Neil Gray, it is the best one we have had and in the years to come they will use it when they gauge the rest. It seems there are things which not all liked and things which some liked and some did not. It was meant to be so, since we are not all the same. The hope is that there was no thing so bad that one would choose not to come back for fear that it would be held once more. Were there things like that? It does not seem so, though I can not say since I was not there. What I would like to hear are the words of more youth. I have seen Clark's words, but his is just one voice. Are there more youth who have things to say? Why do they not say them here? Is there one who knows and could make it so they would?

On Tuesday, 25-Jan-00 08:28:27 EST, Steve D. said
Not just yours...

On Monday, 24-Jan-00 23:11:33 EST, Davem said
my choice

On Sunday, 23-Jan-00 15:48:57 EST, Steve D. said
“So you're saying you'd rather go without than go get it?”

On Sunday, 23-Jan-00 15:30:08 EST, DaveM said
Also, there has never been a real problem with the pecking order, other than some posturing on the part of those with position.
It really keeps like folks together (more or less). There is some percieved problem with folks staying at Clearwater that I don't quite understand. Of all the groups that "form" at camp, we seem to have less of a problem with people in Clearwater. Heck, even after the blow-up "incident", the DHQX and Dixon hung out at Clearwater for hours without any incident. Follow the customs & traditions of Wintercamp, that is why they are there... Perhaps it would be good to seep in what and how those that came before you have done and why before changing the methods any more than we have... The Ceremony Day finale is a good example..

On Sunday, 23-Jan-00 15:25:58 EST, DaveM said
I do belive that there has to be a cutoff for attendance & paying. (If you had to prepare the food-list, obviously three for four days ahead of time is necessary.)
If you just show up, there has to be a penalty, as (at the very least) additional preparations for food portions must be made and probably an additional (and perhaps unnecessary) trip to town must be made to purchase food.
I do not think that additional $$ should be that penalty...there are a number of other ways to make up for it...(Dishes spring to mind, but...)

On Sunday, 23-Jan-00 15:18:15 EST, DaveM said
I believe that each of us attends Wintercamp with different expectations.
What outcome results is generally what results: no more, no less.

On Sunday, 23-Jan-00 12:10:48 EST, Steve Clark said
(Sorry that last post was mine.I thought I had it set on default fault)

On Sunday, 23-Jan-00 11:53:56 EST, said
I was looking over some of the suggestions for wintercamp XXIV and a few leapt out at me. First, I do think that if we have a role-reversal day that we should assign or draw to see whom we will be emulating. We could then make an activity out of figuring out who is trying to emulate you. Second, I agree with the penalty idea, but only to a point. I do think that people who don't pre-pay should have some penalty assessed to them, but I don't think we should penalize people for coming up late or leaving early (so long as they help with clean-up before they leave) because then we are limiting the people who can come (particularly the youth, since a lot fo them can't talk their parents out of having some holiday plans during wintercamp or whatever). As for bringing too much gear, I think that so long as people can find a way to bring it up to camp, who really cares provided that the gear doesn't like spill into everyone else's area. Finally, my feelings on bunks are these: we should allow people, particularly the youth, to be by their friends....this keeps them wanting to come to more OA stuff; also, I think that in Beavercreek, the youth should get priority for having their bunk there (so long as there are some adults in the cabin), and in Clearwater, the adults shoul get proirity for having a bunk in there. Finally, I hope that the adults next year that come to wintercamp do it for the right reason, to make sure the youth in our chapter have a good time. I think a few adults up at camp lost sight of this a bit.

On Saturday, 15-Jan-00 13:07:20 EST, Steve Clark said
Good suggestions (especailly the "developmental leader" part)

On Saturday, 15-Jan-00 10:42:59 EST, Steve D. said
Each of these would, of course, have an adviser selected by the youth leader and the event adviser

On Saturday, 15-Jan-00 10:06:01 EST, Steve D. said
Another thought: I believe for next year we should have three key leadership positions:
Youth Leader
Serves as coordinator for the whole event and is the “go to” guy for Winter Camp. Coordinates the work of the rest of the leadership. Works to motivate all campers to attend all events and meals. Interfaces with the adviser as needed.
Activity Leader
Organizes preparation of activities before and during camp. Checks in with those assigned individual tasks to provide help if needed. Responsible for non-food portion of meals (ie, potato for hot potato lunch).
Head Chef
Prepares menu for the various meals using the WC Food System. Collects recipes and organizes them for use at camp. Answers questions at camp and verifies that people are cooking on a timely basis (ie, reminds you if you haven't started the roast on time).
All three of these tasks are very large. I also think we should consider a Treasurer (we had one, but he bailed prior to camp) and a Trading Post Manager. Both these tasks are fairly simple, but important. They could be used as developmental things. At any event, we need to break some of the mold and I think this would help. As it stands now, I think the youth leader has too much to do and the rest of the youth not enough, except for the handful of theme people.

On Saturday, 15-Jan-00 10:00:37 EST, Steve D. said
Okay, here's my thought for Winter Camp XXIV: I think we should have only one theme for the whole week. I don't think multiple themes has really worked that well. Some of the individual days have been cool, but I think we'd have had a better time overall if we concentrated on one thing at a time. Multiple requires a lot more work and, unfortunately, opens up a lot more chances for discord. One thing I think happens is the theme and the person doing it run into more resistance, since if I really hate Dr. Seuss day (or I really hate Steve Donohue), I just have to ignore it for twelve hours and it will be gone.
I think we should have a single theme and then assign people specific tasks for that theme. Another thing is that running a day may be too big a task for some youth and that can leave them with a bad taste in their mouth - running one game though should be in anyone's reach.

On Thursday, 13-Jan-00 12:21:00 EST, John said
Ok, well I wouldn't call it a surplus until the needed kitchen equipment is purchased--I consider the equipment an event expense, and not subject to the whim of the chapter. If we have any left then let the chapter as whole decide. Sorry if I seem picky about this, but I still remember the "raiding" of the Ceremonial costumes by the Dance team (including lots o' bead work), without any return. I say let the WCFS decide what to do with the money...the equipment is better for all.

On Wednesday, 12-Jan-00 21:14:38 EST, Steve Clark said
I guess I should clarify my thing...I agree that ultimately think that the decision on how to spend the money should stay with wintercampers, but I think that it needs to be at least mentioned in some way to everyone......whether it be done in my final report on the event to the chapter or whether there be a formal proposal leaving Steve D. and Mike Q. (since he is youth leader and also chapter treasurer)in charge of it...either method suits me. I just don't wnat it to seem that it is done behind anyone's back, because that will just add to some chapter members beliefs that wintercamp is a separate entity from our chapter.

On Wednesday, 12-Jan-00 16:57:57 EST, Ron Donohue said
I do not really care what happens with the money. If we don't uy the needed kitchen supplies, I will simply buy them myself. I and others have done this before, and expect to do so into the future. The point I was making is that the Chapter, to the best of my knowledge, has never accepted any financial responsibility for this event. If we were down a similar amount, my guess is that the Chapter may not be willing to make up the difference. It certainly has not done that in the past, but the request may never have been made. As I said before, I do not care what happens to the money, I simply question whether the "surplus of funds" is actually a surplus or the result of various subsidies. If it is the result of subsidies, then I think that the money should be allocated to the event. Frankly, I am not in a position, due to my lack of attendance at other events, to say what the Chapter will do. I am only suggesting that I am not in favor of giving small rebates or adding to some larger pool of resources. Those options simply do not give the "bang for the buck" that new kitchen equipment, binders and patches will. Obviously, I have expressed my opinion and made my point, so I will withdraw from this discussion and let more active members decide what to do with the money (surplus or not).

On Wednesday, 12-Jan-00 16:05:55 EST, Steve Donohue said
I don't have a real answer for this other than saying that I think if Winter Camp needs some equipment and has a surplus now, we should use it for that (within reason) then turn over the surplus to the chapter. We have a surplus at the moment of about 193. (Our original surplus did not take into account bottle returns - further proof that next years event needs a full-time accountant; maybe that should be my cgi script). If we were to allocate some of that money for Winter Camp program expenses it might be a good idea.
Of course, this might all be a tempest anyhow - once this goes to a chapter vote, they'll most likely do what's best for the whole group including Winter Camp; after all, I'd guess 70% of our active youth members and all our leaders were at Winter Camp and the same will probably be true next year.

On Wednesday, 12-Jan-00 14:46:31 EST, Steve Clark said
Actually Ron I personally agree with you. But in my role as chapter chief, I believe that I have a duty to be inclined to make sure that any situation where the chapter (or a part of it), has an event where a surplus of funds occur...the chapter should at least have some knowledge of it and should, at least in theory, have some "say" in how it is used. Ideally, I both as myself and as chapter chief think it would be best if we propose to the entire chapter that Steve D and Mike Q are allowed to use the excess in a manner in which they see fit for the betterment of Wintercamp, if that makes sense.

On Wednesday, 12-Jan-00 13:39:46 EST, Ron Donohue said
You present an interesting thought on the use of funds. My only comment on the whole chapter deciding how to use it is that I do not recall the Chapter stepping up when there have been shortfalls. I would prefer the funding be used in connection with the event that created the income. Many people subsidize Winter Camp in various ways, so it is a very real possibility that dual entry accounting would reveal that the "profit" we are discussing is somewhat illusory in nature. I suspect that every dollar could be accounted for by one person, so I am reluctant to go along with a theory that has a chapter event "generating a profit", because I do not think that reflects the economic realities of the situation. Just one point of view, I am sure there are others.

On Wednesday, 12-Jan-00 13:23:16 EST, Steve Clark said
I have two lines of, we should let Mike and Steve D. decide how to spend it since they have both stepped up to the plate (in Steve D's case yet again) and said they would help be in charge of Wintercamp XXIV. On the other hand I also could see where maybe technically it should be handled by the chapter as a whole since it was excess funds from a chapter event...So, I guess as Steve Clark I say leave it up to Steve D. and Mike Q. to decide, but as chapter chief, I say that it should be brought before the chapter as a whole.

On Monday, 10-Jan-00 15:33:45 EST, Ron Donohue said
I agree with Steve Donohue on the order of preference for spending any money remianing after all current year expenses have been met. I particularly like the idea of adding more baking sheets and additional storage containers (both Tupperware for leftovers, and big bins for gear). We are at Winter Camp for a woefully short period of time, and anything that saves time in the kitchen and leaves time for activities is worth a lot more than a few dollars rebate. I like the idea of binders and patches, but probably not as much as I like the idea of better kitchen gear. On a related note, perhaps everyone could add their suggestions on what is missing from the kitchen. I see a lot at the auction, and would be glad to pick up things we need, if I have some idea of what we need. I am not suggesting that we use the money for that, I view the long-term health of the Winter Camp kitchen as one of my favorite charities, and I am willing to subsidize it whenever possible and convenient.

On Monday, 10-Jan-00 14:08:27 EST, Steve D. said
The site, as far as I know, is paid for. I think we should look at cooking gear, binders, and patches in that order - the patch should be made to be timeless (ie, no dates). i'd like it to have a snowflake or two, but that's just me. The excess funds here could be used to pay set up and stuff so as to reduce the cost of the eventual patch. I think it should work like the binder, where you get one the first time you come to camp. That means that except for the first year, when we'd have a big expense, we'd be in pretty good shape for following years. The worst part would be financing the run. 100 patches would last us something on the order of 10 years I think (that might be generous - if we have the same attendance as this year, we'd use 40 in the first year. In succeeding years, we'd only need 1 for each new person, usually that number is around 5 or 6). Either way, we need to outlay for the initial run of 100, then store them (probably in the museum <grin>.

On Monday, 10-Jan-00 13:52:07 EST, Steve Clark said
Mr. Clark is my dad....anyway another thing we could do would be to put the excess money toward paying for the existence of this site.

On Sunday, 09-Jan-00 22:36:37 EST, Jeff said
We saved money last year because we did not give away binders. Perhaps we could use both of Mr. Clarks ideas. Apply excess to binders. Give a rebate to last year's newcomers not in cash but in the form of a binder. The'll have to show up for a chapter activity to get it.

On Saturday, 08-Jan-00 23:49:34 EST, Steve D. said
I received the suggestion earlier that we evaluate our stores and see what we're missing from our cooking gear. The suggestion was that we at least take some of the excess and buy a cake pan or two, some pie pans, larger volleyball nets, or a quality oven thermometer.

On Saturday, 08-Jan-00 23:02:26 EST, Cardinal Sin said
Maybe we could put the excess $$ into (1) the Chapter fund for camp improvement. I know $200 isn't a lot, but how much were they trying to raise for a range hood (or something similar.) or (2) that could be put to use funding one or two kids to go to summer camp (gasp camping promotion...Who would think wintercampers care about that?!)Or we could buy beer for the adults for putting up with S&S's crap all weekend.. (hmmm...guess which one I'm in for?)

On Saturday, 08-Jan-00 18:51:56 EST, Steve Clark said
Another thing we could do would be to have an incentive plan that if people that went to wintercamp 23 come to like the next chapter meeting (for instance) or some event they get like $3-4 back. (Not that $3-4 is much of an incentive but, it's an idea.)

On Saturday, 08-Jan-00 18:48:42 EST, Steve Clark said
It could also be put towards buying things like Wintercamp binders or some patches for wintercamp. (And I don't really care about the dollar store stuff...if there was a line for all the people that should be reimbursed by wintercamp, I am sure that my $15-20 would be pretty low on the list).

On Friday, 07-Jan-00 11:39:16 EST, Steve D. said
oOn a slightly related note, we could easily afford to reimburse you for your dollar store expenses.

On Friday, 07-Jan-00 11:39:16 EST, Steve D. said
Well, maybe. I think a twelve man is like 90 bucks though and we could have rented two more on this year's attendance and lost less than a buck for the week. Of course if we'd actually bought the right amount of food, our expenses would have been about $125 more (roughly 15% of 850) which would still have left us with about 50 bucks in "profit". We could have rented the extra cabin on this years attendance and would have lost about $40 - that would, in my estimation, have been better than making $180.
I think for next year, we might try to see if we can beat Mr. Trainer down on the price a little. <grin>

On Friday, 07-Jan-00 09:38:14 EST, Steve Clark said
Then again, if attendence goes much higher, won't we need the extra money to rent another cabin?

On Friday, 07-Jan-00 08:32:08 EST, Steve D said
Having completed the finance stuff for Winter Camp XXIII, I think it's safe to say two things:
  1. A price rollback should be considered - we made almost $4.00 a person and, if attendance stays this high, it seems likely that we should charge less
  2. we need to establish some standard fees for day visitors in advance as well as substantial penalties for late payers
We also need to improve our record-keeping some - if we had lost money, we'd be hard-pressed to figure out why.
The late fees are needed not for their financial impact, but to reduce the number of people who show up at the last minute. The food list was prepared for 32 people and we had total attendance of 41, with 36-38 being our average per meal. Needless to say, if you thought we were short food on some meals, having roughly 10-20% more people eating them might have had something to do with it.

On Monday, 03-Jan-00 15:06:24 EST, Steve Clark said
Whatever I can help with, let me know.

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