Old Notes
Winter Camp XXVII - 2003

Check out what everyone else is saying:
E-mail addresses and names are not guaranteed to be who they say they are.
That being said, we should tell you that the webmaster can tell who said what.

On Friday, 26-Sep-2003 20:57:02 EDT, Jay Ryu said
I have a 7th grade boy. He wants to participate winter camp. Can you send me information about your program?
He is an international student and speaks little English.

On Tuesday, 02-Sep-2003 09:52:06 EDT, Lucy Pagan said
I am looking for a baseball winter camp for my 15 year old son. I would like to know if you know any organization like this in the Bronx. If there is can you be so king and to send me any information you have.
Thank you much,
Lucy Pagan

On Monday, 01-Sep-2003 19:08:45 EDT, Kupser said
Hopefully everyone is thinking about wintercamp. A thought for everyone that is going to conclave. Try to get one person from your troop that is in the O-A and that you know that has not gone to wintercamp to go. Hopefully we can pick up some more people and make it even more exciting so get busy promoting wintercamp and lets make it more fun.

On Monday, 01-Sep-2003 18:28:50 EDT, Steve D. said
So not to put too big a bro on it, but it is September...

On Tuesday, 12-Aug-2003 15:57:04 EDT, kupser said
She is still in the contest for the title so keep on voting for Terri the web site is www.divaseach.wwe.com

On Sunday, 10-Aug-2003 22:24:22 EDT, Kupser said
Thank you to all of you that voted. She made it. She won the contest for this region of the country.

On Saturday, 02-Aug-2003 21:01:31 EDT, Kupser said
Terri has made into the top 8 so keep on voting for her.

On Sunday, 27-Jul-2003 21:26:17 EDT, Kupser said
Hello all I am requesting your assistance for a friend of mine. Steve said that it would be ok so here it is. A real good friend of mine is a model and is in a contest for the W.W.E. So if you all could vote for her it would be apperciated. Her name is Terri from Trenton, Michigan. She said that she would also hand out requests for the Wintercamp Autograph to everyone when she goes to California to do a photo shoot at the Playboy mansion next month. So if you can vote for her. You can vote everyday for her so here is the link.
http://www.divasearch.wwe.com/
If you would like to see her site it is http://www.terrimitchell.com/
Hopefully she wins so we can get W.W.E. Autographs also
Thank you for the votes Kupser.

On Tuesday, 22-Jul-2003 20:46:00 EDT, said
kupser@wintercamp.com works, as far as I know.

On Tuesday, 22-Jul-2003 20:45:50 EDT, said
Does this one work?

On Friday, 18-Jul-2003 18:32:24 EDT, Lou said
Hey paul Send me your email address. I've got a couple of things to ask you.

On Wednesday, 16-Jul-2003 23:07:10 EDT, Kupser said
I see that the talk about camp from the youth is slow. Hopefully they get this hint and start sending in some suggestions for this years camp.

On Wednesday, 09-Jul-2003 15:54:49 EDT, Mingyu Deng said

On Saturday, 05-Jul-03 00:36:21 EDT, ethan said
i think that a better idea for the ceremony site clearing would be for the chapter to host a service weekend in the fall and do it then. after all, it would be service to the camp and i think that the fall fellowship should be work free.

On Saturday, 05-Jul-03 00:33:34 EDT, ethan said
in response to jeff's comments, id be thrilled to earn the winter camp fitness award. ill even design te requirements.

On Saturday, 28-Jun-03 22:38:55 EDT, Kupser said
Cerimony is looking also for a good date for the W's clearing. The first thought was the weekend of the Fall Fellowship due that there would be a lot of Arrowmen there especially from our Chapter. But then there was also the thought that it could happen on or about the last weekend of summer camp. Either weekend will work but there is a need to find out which. Thanks Kupser

On Thursday, 19-Jun-03 22:25:35 EDT, Jeff said
We have additional colors of Winter Camp patches and discussed having them available for other colleges besides the College of Winter Camping. Another idea is to offer additional awards such as the "Winter Camp Fitness Award."

On Sunday, 08-Jun-03 21:38:07 EDT, Jeff said
I just came across the Winter Campopoly game. It is sure an impressive piece of work and I got a chuckle reading the cards. Also, it adds to the agrument favoring Beaver Creek based upon real estate vaules.

On Monday, 02-Jun-03 03:35:06 EDT, ethan said
id be glad to held with this project.

On Sunday, 01-Jun-03 22:22:22 EDT, Dave said
I'm always down for clearing the way for the W's.

On Sunday, 01-Jun-03 20:21:42 EDT, Kupser said
Give me a call if this idea works, due that I might not be on-line for another couple of more weeks. 1-734-552-0061

On Sunday, 01-Jun-03 18:00:56 EDT, Steve D. said
I'm cool with the clearing project but I think we should do it during the summer (either before or probably right after summer camp). Even if the crew that's up there cuts more than they can carry off easily, we can do clean up at the ordeal and could possibly have the w's at the fall ordeal, which would be sweet.

On Sunday, 01-Jun-03 17:37:22 EDT, Kupser said
Sorry that I have not been able to post or check out the site lately. I have a bit of good news and a bit of bad. The good news is that after the section conclave I, on that Sunday, I went up to the cerimony site and have found 12 of the original 15 points of the W's on the face. As per the Red Book they were placed exactly to the picture(Thanks Jeff). Now the bad news. There is a lot of work to be done clearing out the brush and trees that are within and obstructing the view of the original 98 foot W's. So what I am proposing is that when we are at camp that we clear the brush and trees. Due to that it is winter there will be no folage on the trees and it will be a little easier to clear out. Also there will be a much larger group than when we cleared for the half size W's. Cutting tools of all kinds will be needed including chain saws and work gloves. Also this will supply our wood supply for the conclaves fires at the site. Please think on this.

On Friday, 16-May-03 00:12:20 EDT, Steve D. said
In a less than hotly contested battle the youth of Mahican voted about 7 to 1 in favor of holding Winter Camp in and around the Beaver Creek subcamp this year. Instrumental in their decision was Dave Booth who loudly expressed his support of BC. Other campers on hand tried to explain both viewpoints fairly but would probably have been deemed less than successful by those who wanted to move.

On Saturday, 10-May-03 20:24:33 EDT, Steve D. said
During the One Day, several people got together to discuss the cabins for Winter Camp. On hand were Ethan, Jamie, Brad Alderman and I. There were others, but none of them seemed to care either way. The group assembled today basically decided none of the reasons to move from BC was particularly compelling.
Right now, both cabins (JL and BC) are open. I think our best plan of action might be to put our reservation in on Beaver Creek/Clearwater/Highpoint cabins and then have some further discussion/ratification at the chapter meeting on Thursday. The only reason I'd say we should at least put ourselves in on one is just to insure we aren't cut out of both.

On Friday, 09-May-03 00:26:52 EDT, ethan said
Saturday, May 10th is the One Day of Service. this is a region wide oa program. migisi opawgan will be hosting a service project at ford field in dearborn. it will run from 10am until 4pm. if you need directions, they are on the lodge web page. (www.migisi.org). everyone is welcome and everyone who helps gets a patch. sorry about that previous addition.

On Friday, 09-May-03 00:26:42 EDT, etha said

On Friday, 09-May-03 00:04:06 EDT, ethan said
te price of cabins has gone up 10 dollars per tent site and about a dollar or 1.25 dollars per bed. the difference in price was to make an even amount for the price. these prices are in effect starting in the fall. these prices are not on the council website, but they will be. (www.dacbsa.org)

On Thursday, 08-May-03 19:56:37 EDT, Lou said
Something else to keep in mind I believe the cabin prices have gone up.

On Monday, 05-May-03 23:23:36 EDT, ethan said
the meeting brad suggests sounds good. if we need a place, te statley rein manor is available.

On Monday, 05-May-03 23:07:58 EDT, Brad said
That might be right John. I haven't seen the books yet to see if JL is taken or not. If it isn't we should think about having a meeting of youth that are planning on attending and discuss what they think. We should do this as soon as possible.

On Monday, 05-May-03 12:27:59 EDT, wilfred okere said
My comment about your coming camp belive that God will help you all and i think i will be in this camp for this year.

On Friday, 02-May-03 08:24:52 EDT, John said
Oops forgot my Name

On Friday, 02-May-03 08:24:26 EDT, said
So basically, if we didn't run down to council yesterday..the decision is probably made for us...

On Tuesday, 29-Apr-03 22:36:19 EDT, Brad said
Jack Lord may not be an option even if everybody does want it. There is a cub pack that tries to get it every year during that time, and they will probably be down at council on Thursday 5/1 to reserve it. I was talking to one of the leaders for the pack and he said that there may be a trade possible, but they like JL, and he reccemonded if we want one cabin to go to Trout Lake.

As it is right now I don't think that the BC compound is that bad. Yes it is getting a little bit tight, but it is nice for everybody to have there own little place to go to. I know I was for the move before, but the more I thought about it, it doesn't seem necessary at this point in time. I would be willing to sleep in either HP or Lang if need be.

On Tuesday, 29-Apr-03 15:38:42 EDT, ethan said
i cant be at the next chapter meeting, but i hope someone can cast a "jack lord, the new d-bar-a" vote for me

On Thursday, 17-Apr-03 08:11:46 EDT, Wilfred Okere said
I will like to come to the camp.

On Thursday, 17-Apr-03 08:08:22 EDT, Wilfred Okere said
I will like to come to the camp

On Sunday, 13-Apr-03 10:19:58 EDT, Dave said
It's a youth run organization. It's their call. (coughadvicenotedcough)

On Saturday, 12-Apr-03 20:01:22 EDT, Kupser said
I think that the location of the group should be discused by the youth and the adults. The youths and the adults are both participating it is not just an I issue but a group discussion. Even though we all have our opinions where we would like it to be I think there should be some sort of vote. One or the other this will let us know what the youth and the adults would like to do and where they would like to stay. Our opinions could go on forever. But it is a group item do to we will all be covering the additional cost.

On Thursday, 10-Apr-03 22:48:48 EDT, Steve D. said
Maybe I'll talk to Jamie about discussing this at the next chapter meeting.

On Thursday, 03-Apr-03 19:38:55 EST, Steve D. said
Hmm. maybe they don't. Any youth seeing this?

On Monday, 31-Mar-03 23:39:20 EST, Steve D. said
The problem with a debate is that it should probably occur among the youth, not the adults and the youth don't show up here that much. I know Ryan reads the page sometimes, not sure about any others anymore. Probably Ethan does too.

On Monday, 31-Mar-03 14:17:56 EST, John said
I agree that we need a good debate...I personally am undecided if we should move or stay. There are reasons for both, and like Ron, I don't think the cost is a primary reason--meaning if the other reasons make sense we can probably handle the cost factor. Perhaps a visit might make some sense for some of us who haven't seen the JL cabin(s) in a while...isn't the ordeal coming up? (Opportunity for migisi.org plug).

I think the Kitchen is a big factor, and sleeping/indoor activity space as well...40-50 people in BC area is pretty crowded...

On Monday, 31-Mar-03 09:52:07 EST, Ron Donohue said
The cups were neeted out of trading post sales, as Steve mentioned. The additional patches were $396, but that is not a cost particular to one Winter Camp, rather it as allocable to a series of Winter Camps. As I recall, the blue borders are the sale patches, while the other colors are only available to those who earn them through the Winter Camp University. The sales of the blue borders will either cover hte cost, or it will not. I assure you that it does not make any difference to the person who paid for the patches.

Also, the cabin costs were a little different this year. I thought that the costs were comped by the Council, although my recollection is fuzzy. I suppose that should figure into any budget estimate this year, at least insofar as this year is used as a basis for that estimation process.

I am interested in the discussion of location, and am not ver sensitive to cost. Sensitivity to cost probably varies substantially across our group. I would like to make the decision based on what we think would make the most sense for Winter Camp, and would assume that any additional costs are well within the range of what can be subsidized by those who wish to do so.

We have several months to have the discussion and make the decision. Why don't we use that time to let people debate the topic? Perhaps a separate discussion on location might make sense. Those that feel strongly can make their case in the forum, publicly.

On Sunday, 30-Mar-03 19:23:37 EST, Steve D. said
I realize now those trading post sales don't look that ridiculous until you throw in that we paid Ron back about $100 for cups out of that. We still have most of the cups left. The surplus is just for patches, which we've been selling (albeit slowly). There were 200, we have 100 with blue borders and 25 each with four other colors (white, red, black and green I think).

On Sunday, 30-Mar-03 18:16:03 EST, Dave said
Speedy enough, now?

On Sunday, 30-Mar-03 15:00:35 EST, Steve D. said
It's probably closer to $3.03 a participant, since we aren't likely to actually have 52 people (and if we did, we'd probably get another cabin). Last year we came out about 350 to the good, largely on the strength of ridiculous trading post sales (over $170) and Paul having contributed all the soda. There were also numerous program contributions by adults, none of whom wanted reimbursement. The surplus is tagged to cover the cost of Winter Camp patchs and souvenir cups.

On Sunday, 30-Mar-03 13:52:18 EST, Dave said
Looking at our past years (throwing out the 162 banquet year) it would seem that there's a fine line between loosing and making money. I realize we're only talking probably $2.02 a participant to make up the difference in cabin locations, however we should throw that in the pot for consideration as well.

On Sunday, 30-Mar-03 13:47:56 EST, Dave said
And our estimated profit from last year was: $_____________?

On Saturday, 29-Mar-03 22:27:58 EST, Steve D. said
As we evaluate, let's not overlook cost as a factor.

On Saturday, 29-Mar-03 22:16:27 EST, Steve D. said
Well, there's really only one thing we have to discuss hard at this time of year and that's location, location, location. Will it be the traditional Beaver Creek complex or will we move to the Jack Lord area.
BC Pros: Traditional, appropriate fields and locations known for most events, good terrain, visitors expect us there, it is 'our' cabin, wired for internet, separate buildings for special interest groups, many decorations and whatnot designed with building in mind, rafters rock, cost (BC is 200, HP & CW are 90 or 380 for 49).
BC Cons: Dining area is at or above capacity, Kitchen lacks storage and workspace, toilets and showers are at top of hill
JL Pros: Larger Kitchen and Dining area, indoor toilets, less division and closer proximity of group.
JL Cons: Less division of group, relocation of most activities, inferior terrain, non-traditional, not wired for internet, cost (JL is 370 + West is 120 or 490 for 52)

On Saturday, 29-Mar-03 16:59:05 EST, Kupser said
Still slow I see too bad.

On Sunday, 23-Mar-03 22:24:53 EST, Kupser said
It looks like the site is slow. That is ok I will check back later.

On Sunday, 02-Mar-03 23:46:35 EST, kupser said
I think that the ideas are great. Another thought that if we print them ourselves or buy them in the cafepress store than they could have the cool Wintercamp Logo on them. The postage will most likely change by a few cents but I am sure that it will be picked up by someone or the WCFS in the future. Also if any individuals bring something to be placed in the capsule than they should or could provide an explanation for the group on what it is. All the information could also be placed in a plastic bag in the capsule so that if the person is unlikely to attend than there will be a log of the items and an explanation of there reason for being there.

On Sunday, 02-Mar-03 20:58:24 EST, Ricky said
We could always put a dvd drive in with it in case they become extinct in the future.

On Friday, 28-Feb-03 17:53:29 EST, Dave said
We could put a collection of WC related .mpgs or movies on a dvd-rw and see if we can still find a player for the media (grin).

On Thursday, 27-Feb-03 22:55:18 EST, Jeff said
Good ideas.

On Thursday, 27-Feb-03 18:54:02 EST, Steve D. said
I've been thinking about the Time Capsule lately and talked to a few people about it. I think the capsule needs to be cooler. We need to put better stuff in it. What I'd like to do is to try and get some ideas about what we should put in it. Some of the things I've come up with in my talks are:
  1. Postcards for everyone. I have no problem stealing Paul's idea. We can print them ourselves or buy them in the cafepress store.
  2. Guestbook - just what it sounds like. Everyone signs a log and in five years it comes back out and goes in a special book.
  3. Music CD. Not entirely sure, but I think collecting some of the hits for the year to be played back later would be cool.
  4. Newspaper. Maybe we could add a Dec 24 paper to the capsule each year
  5. Year in Review stuff Lots of magazines publish this sort of thing towards the end of the year. maybe we could pick one each year and put it in. We'd want one with tv, movies, music, news (maybe) etc.
  6. Artifacts. Not just junk we find, but stuff brought specifically to put in the capsule with an explanation of why>
  7. Time Capsule Log. Not so much for in the capsule as to record that for the 2008 capsule we'll need a CD player or some aaa batteries or whatever, then logging of the stuff that was in the capsule. Content logging could start with this year's

The other big time capsule 'issue' is the 25 year. We dug it up but I don't think we've ever buried a new one. Are we going to? I kind of think we should, but it definitely needs some cool stuff in it.

On Wednesday, 19-Feb-03 14:09:52 EST, John said
People complain no matter what. They complained we did nothin g before 9/11 now they complain about what the govt is doing post 9/11. People just like to complain. (Not that I would ever take part in something like that ;-))

On Wednesday, 19-Feb-03 00:07:45 EST, Steve D. said
And if they were silent, then what?

On Tuesday, 18-Feb-03 22:42:24 EST, Kupser said
Just what America needs is another scare created by elected morons. Red Green must have been the originator of that one or at least on the board.

On Monday, 17-Feb-03 17:09:48 EST, Lou said
Ahh yes, I forgot that this Homeland Security Alert was being sponsered by Home Depot.

On Saturday, 15-Feb-03 09:38:55 EST, Ron Donohue said
Lou, I do not think we will be able to use duct tape, as it is all
being hoarded under the ludicrous proposition that it can stop biological
weapons. Don't make any plans for visquine either.

On Wednesday, 12-Feb-03 19:13:36 EST, Lou said
Come on, we copuld do it like in the SCA and just use Duct Tape. As for soda, I think large quantities of Mountain Dew would be most appropriate.

On Wednesday, 12-Feb-03 01:31:43 EST, ethan said
in addition, i should hope no team is team yellow

On Tuesday, 11-Feb-03 10:14:57 EST, Steve D. said
That's an excellent idea Ron. One that I can probably facilitate with some bits o' fabric and a sewing machine. Maybe 25 each of two colors and 15 each of two other colors (thus allowing us 2 teams of 25, and 3 or 4 teams of 15. I suppose you could just do 4 15's and say red and white were together). I'll probably by either 48 or 60 fabric, split it down the center and sew them up to finish of about 22 or 28 inch by 2 or 3 inch strips.
Just like in Reservoir Dogs, there will be no Team Black. No word yet on Team Pink. I'll probably shop in the club neon section of the fabric store.

On Tuesday, 11-Feb-03 09:23:39 EST, Ron Donohue said
If we are voting on flavors, I put forward a strong recommendation
for the nectar of the gods, Diet Mountain Dew. If this is more
costly, I am willing to pay more for a nectary cup o' plenty. I also had
a thought about picking teams for activities. When we play things like Frisbee
and Soccer, it is often hard to figure out who is on your team. My thought
is that we might buy a bunch of armbands or some other identifying marker. As
we began each game, we would simply draw from a big bag, and the teams would be
random. Then, we would have both random teams and a way of identifying friend from foe,
although the lines blur as the game moves on.

On Monday, 10-Feb-03 18:09:58 EST, Jeff said
Mr. Kupser was looking for more activity on this site. His directions were followed.

On Sunday, 09-Feb-03 20:39:35 EST, Steve D. said
Leave it to a rotgut drinker to be unable to follow even the simplest of directions...

On Sunday, 09-Feb-03 20:24:51 EST, Jeff said
Coke is my choice.

On Sunday, 09-Feb-03 18:00:03 EST, Kupser said
Thanks John. I am writing this in order to get everybody’s input for the Winter Camp XXVII soda selection. Although there are so many selections that are available I only have the Selected container sizes available. I have 7 * 5 Gallon containers and I also have the two 13.5 Gallon kegs available. They will all be on CO2 as usual so there will not be any flavor loss. I am trying to get input on how much and what kind of soda Winter Campers want. Do we want 13.5 Gallons of Root beet or 5 Gallons? All selections are now available such as any Coke, Pepsi, or Faggo flavors. This decision up to everyone due to your favored selection will differ from everyone else. The final flavors will be posted before Camp with the selection and quantity. Also there will be the return of the Cup O Plenty. So please E-mail me at pkupser@peoplepc.com with your choices.

On Saturday, 08-Feb-03 18:10:53 EST, John said
Posting so Paul won't feel lonely.

On Saturday, 08-Feb-03 17:48:41 EST, Kupser said
As I see again that this area is slow to visitors.

On Saturday, 01-Feb-03 15:31:40 EST, Kupser said
If I can remember correctly from my District days the date that the book opens for the next scout years is 8 a.m. at the council office on May the 1st. I'll check to see if this is still correct or if has changed.

On Friday, 31-Jan-03 17:59:21 EST, Lou said
Something to keep in mind Jack Lord was used this past year but Trout Lake wasn't. The group that was in there was actually a 3 Rivers group (pack I think.) And only a few cabins were reserved. You can check the book on the council site. We could probally work out a trade of cabins if we reserve Jack Lord and don't need it.

On Monday, 27-Jan-03 15:34:43 EST, Steve D. said
The problem is we need to reserve a cabin in July or so when the book opens (Beaver Creek might be around for a little while, but I think Jack Lord gets reserved pretty fast). This year, we had 10 youth at camp who weren't even members in July, so baing reservations on an attendance target might be tough.
Maybe we should have a vote with the understanding that anyone who votes to stay in BC is volunteering to sleep in one of the other cabins.
I still think the biggest loss may be the ability of people in smaller cabins to keep strange hours and/or have additional equipment. As you consider the move, realize that if we are all in one building then all resources would have to be shared equally. They do now anyways, but opportunity saves you... I can't look for time on the Playstation if I'm not there. If I'm looking at it, I may want to play and it isn't fair for those kinds of attractive nuisances to not be shared.

On Monday, 27-Jan-03 12:40:03 EST, Kupser said
You both make good arguments in looking at the traditional aspect of wintercamp and the future of wintercamp. But I would see a need to move if we have reached a limit in size. If we do reach a number that might needs to be set than there should also be a cut off for the payment of wintercamp that everyone must follow. This cut off could be set by say the wintercamp future society and it would allow for early enough choice as to where in camp that we as a group will be staying.

On Sunday, 26-Jan-03 21:21:49 EST, Steve D. said
Well, I don't think moving golf is that big a deal. I don't remember any actual work being done on the course. We just remembered there was an oversize hole at the back of the site (part of an old Wilderness Survival course) and history was made.
The bigger problem is the overall terrain. You have to work at it to find swamp in bc. In Jack Lord it's the opposite - there are a few big fields but most everything else is swamp. that makes games like capture the objective a lot harder. pretty much anything where we'd need to hike or walk a lot would be more of a problem in Jack Lord than in BC.
I think I'm still for the move if our attendance is up again but if it's close to 40 (like this year) I'd as soon not move. There are a lot of traditions associated with not just Beaver Creek subcamp, but the cabins themselves.

On Sunday, 26-Jan-03 19:42:31 EST, Pablo said
As I was up at D-A this past weekend for Winter Klondike I took notice on the insides of James E. West, Jack Lord, and Dan Beard. This is how i would look at it. The move down to that area would serve well, James E. West and Dan Beard are about if not identical in size. The size in them is larger then Clearwater which suits us Clearwater people and Highpoint/Lang people as well. Jack Lord suits all of our sleeping, Dining, Cooking, Bathroom/Shower, and Room Arangements. Outside there is a large field where multiple activites can be done, and if it's not big enough there is a field down the road plus a firebowl area. Lockwood Lake is not to far away as well as multiple pavilions. All ctivites could be moved over with the exeption of two, those of course are C.C. Golf, and the Time-Capsule. There can be another Golf Course laid out in the spring and like suggestions for this before we could have dinner and maybe an activity over at B.C. Pavillion before the Ceremony. I know there is always going to be arguments for or against the move, But as Winter Camper we have to thing what is best for our fellow Winter Camper. B.C. is tradition but we need to relize the situation. The move is inevitible and i belive can and will happen

On Sunday, 19-Jan-03 23:23:06 EST, Steve D. said
Okay, so due to a slight error on my part, the WCU will probably be here for a little while longer (less than 2 weeks though).
Please resume your normally scheduled activities.

On Wednesday, 15-Jan-03 23:17:13 EST, Steve D. said
The Winter Camp Site is being moved. Anything entered after this may or may not make the move, so unless you have to say it immediately and don't care if it doesn't show up on the new site, hold off for a day or two

On Wednesday, 08-Jan-03 02:19:58 EST, Kupser said
Winter Camp seems to be getting bigger over the recent years. The increase in the size of our group seems to be a trend that is catching on, and is probably going to be more contagious than the flew of XXVI. Hopefully we will continue to grow both as a group in numbers and as individuals.

On Tuesday, 07-Jan-03 22:13:51 EST, ethan said
with zach as youth chair and kupser as the adviser, winter camp twenty seven will be so great! i hope i to run some event, sign me up guys!

On Tuesday, 07-Jan-03 17:33:18 EST, Lou said
The other problem with staying in BC is I don't think the dining room could fit everyone is we grow to need 4 cabins. If me and the Hunts and come for the full time this probally would have been close to being a problem this year.

On Monday, 06-Jan-03 18:07:44 EST, Pablo said
Go Kupse go Kupser!!!

On Monday, 06-Jan-03 16:20:00 EST, Steve D. said
You da man.

On Monday, 06-Jan-03 11:43:40 EST, Kupser said
Has any one stepped up to be the advisor of Winter Camp XXVII? If not I would like to be the advisor.

On Saturday, 04-Jan-03 18:12:01 EST, Ricky said
Last time I was at Jack Lord, the trading post room was open, but it was piled from the floor to the ceiling with summer camp stuff.

On Saturday, 04-Jan-03 12:58:05 EST, Steve D. said
Patrols tend to build either "unnatural" cliques or "unfair" patrols. To balance things, you need to have an assortment of people in each patrol and you probably need to mix things up. If you had 8 12 year olds and 8 16 year olds, you'd probably want to split them into two patrols of 4 12 and 4 16 year olds each. That's most likely to be fair. If they chose their own patrols, it would be more likely that all 8 16 year olds would be one patrol.
Note: I'm not saying its always like this, nor am I saying that the 4/4 patrols would always be fair. All I'm saying is that natural social cliques don't necessarily make good patrols and even good patrols don't become social cliques in one week. What I'm really saying is that I think cliques are bad to the extent that they create walls/barriers between people who could otherwise hang out and have fun. Patrols might do the same thing.
And no, there's never been a challenge before and I don't think there's a method to launch one. I suppose one could try to convince Zach to step down and then take his place, but I'm not sure how successful that would be.

On Saturday, 04-Jan-03 12:11:48 EST, Pablo said
I agree with Ethan on liking the cliques, they wil always be there so why try to break them down


Seeing no response to my youth leader question I'm guessing that there is no way to challenge for he position

On Saturday, 04-Jan-03 02:29:35 EST, Dave said
I am certainly in favor of seriously considering using Jack Lord in the future.

On Saturday, 04-Jan-03 00:54:14 EST, Steve D. said
Usually, trading post rooms are locked and not accessible to people using the cabin. I know that's how it was other times I've stayed there.

On Saturday, 04-Jan-03 00:39:17 EST, ethan said
jack lord has several rooms. it would not discourage separation of groups, i think. i like "cliques" and i think mist kids do, lets not try to change things that are natural. in answer to brad's question, the office would be great for the museum and a computer, while the summer camp trading post copuld make a good lounge, or have the trading post as the museum/office and make the office the lounge.

On Friday, 03-Jan-03 23:21:29 EST, Pablo said
Really? Hmm well the pre-sign up is still a good idea because it should give us a hint on the turn out

On Friday, 03-Jan-03 21:33:48 EST, Steve D. said
Actually, we had 10 from the Fall and only 3 from the Spring Ordeal in attendance at camp this year.

On Friday, 03-Jan-03 21:23:53 EST, Pablo said
I think BC is traditional and yes we alllove it but it may still not be practical, We need to have a Pre-sign up sheet so we might be ably to approximate how many are planning on attending, of course by fall we wil get more people, but a mojorty of the fall people do not attend WC in their first three monthes in the OA

On Friday, 03-Jan-03 20:21:49 EST, Steve D. said
So part of the solution to potentially needing 4 cabins if we stay in BC is to use a 5th one? The patrol method encourages cliques rather than breaking them down. The continental breakfast encourages sloth. Lunches this year were cold sandwiches, cold salads, sloppy joes and two one-pot dishes. We could get simpler, but I'm not sure McDonald's is practical.

On Friday, 03-Jan-03 20:07:11 EST, Jeff said
There are many obvious and subtle reasons that encourage Winter Camp to remain in BC.

  • Winter setting: The backdrop of hills and trees gives BC the look and feel of winter. Jack Lord was designed as and remains a parade grounds.
  • Activities: It offers much superior land for the time capsule, cross country golf, capture the objective, murder-clue, orienteering, snow camping (walk 500 feet from the Jack Lord Bldg in any direction and you’re in a swamp)
  • Proximity to the lake: Beaver Lake has played a big role in Winter Camp over the years. It has numerous access points and does not have a busy road at its greatest extent
  • Communications: BC is internet enabled
  • Intimacy: Having stayed in virtually every cabin in D-A and in hundreds of locations worldwide there is a special character and feel to the main room at the BC building. Yes, it doesn’t exist when it is crammed with 40 people, but I doubt any other room will either. I spent Winter Camp ’72 eating with a large group in Trailside (now Trout Lake). The cabin never had the warmth that we experience in BC and most of our indoor gatherings occurred in smaller groups at Trout Lake (now Draper).

I think we might want to look at other options to keep Winter Camp Vibrant for a growing population.

  • Use patrol method
  • Have continental breakfast in individual cabins
  • Use Chippewa Cabin as an outpost for certain evening activities (i.e. Winter Camp Casino, Gamefest, Jeopardy contest.) This would allow much easier setup and cleanup.
  • Have simpler lunches

On Friday, 03-Jan-03 14:26:07 EST, Kupser said
As far as I know the book still opens up for reservations on May 1st every year. So, anything that is to be decided in the accomidations for this years winter camp should be done by then. It is first come first served on the accomidations and last I knew that if there is a back out of a cabin 30 or more days before the event than all monies will be returned to the group. If less than 30 days than half of the monies will be returned.

On Friday, 03-Jan-03 02:42:34 EST, Pablo said
P.S.----Is there anyway we can challenge the self-declered youth leader fro his position?

On Friday, 03-Jan-03 02:35:23 EST, Pablo said
I agree with mike on the trail. And the Cliqes will never be fixed, only problems can arise. The CW gorup can always be in James E. West where as the "Goons" Can have the other cabin or vice-versa if we get three, But where as most of them really don't like the term "Goon" or others don't like the term "Gump" remember this, names come and go but the ciques stay for life. They may also fade away too. But I think the dinner thing I mentoned earlier (Brad mentioned it also) is our best bet, as well as moving to J.L. sub-camp.

On Friday, 03-Jan-03 00:31:14 EST, Mike said
I would have to agree on the on move to jl.I think the pluses out weight the minuses for the move. on fixing the timecapsule trail i say don't touch it there is less a chance of somebody finding the site.

On Thursday, 02-Jan-03 20:38:19 EST, Steve D. said
I don't think changing buildings will eliminate cliques. It's part of normal interaction that you'll find it easier to hang out with a smaller group with similar interests (outside of scouting) than with a larger one that you may not share as many interests with.

On Thursday, 02-Jan-03 20:28:10 EST, Ricky Naida said
I like the idea of moving to Jack Lord. I found staying in Lang to be difficult because when something was needed from BC or when I was at BC and needed something from Lang to have to walk there and back.

I also think that the time capsule hike was a little bit difficult. Besides the fact that it was slippery, some of the trail was pretty steep, and it was a long walk. Maybe for a service project the trail could be fixed so that it is was a little easier to walk.

On Thursday, 02-Jan-03 20:13:05 EST, Brad said
Does anybody know how big the office are is inside JL? Is it large enough to house the musuem and a lounge area? Most of the luxuries from CW could be put in the lounge and could be used during free time or "quiet" time. I don't think there would be a problem with this, if there is room.

I think the cabin change would also be good in getting rid of the labels of Goons, Gumps, and everybody else, there would just be Winter Campers. I think most of the Goons (or at least some of them) don't want to be labeled that anymore, and I know several of us down in the "Gump cabin" don't want to be Gumps. The larger groups would also be better in getting some of the more cliqueish Scouts to interact with eachother and not form their little groups.

On Thursday, 02-Jan-03 18:50:56 EST, Steve D. said
There is one more not unimportant change. If we were in one building or two buildings then some of the privileges of staying in one of the smaller buildings would vanish. Although Lang didn't seem to make much use of their seperation this year, Clearwater did. I think we need to remember that as we go forward with any plan to consolidate. Those who are used to being in smaller groups and smaller cabins with certain luxuries will have to forego those things (or at least share them with others.

On Thursday, 02-Jan-03 18:35:27 EST, Brad said
I like the idea of staying over in the JL area, it seems like it would be a little nicer and roomier. Here is a solution for the time capsule hike problem.

If we were to have a campfire with dinner over at the BC firebowl/skills center the evening of the time capsule hike that would take care of that problem. Plus it would be nice to have a campfire before the ceremony, and if we plan it right we can have a campfire snack when we get back from the hike. I would probably recemond driving to and from the campfire site, so it is easier to deal with food prep and trash/leftover removal.

CC Golf wouldn't be too bad, we could even lengthen the course and raise the par so it starts from the JL flag pole. It would just add another leg on to the course. I don't think that would be a huge deal.

Those are the only 2 events that I can think of that really need to be over in the BC area, everything else can be done anywhere in camp.

On Thursday, 02-Jan-03 16:45:59 EST, Pablo said
With the increasing size of WC particapents I think that this is a good I dea also. The only problem like others said Is the time capsule hike. There could be something done about it to make it better, but I'm sure with all our "bright minds" we can come up with something. Maybe like dinner over at the BC skills pavillion and then the Hike, which would be much easier in my opinion.

On Thursday, 02-Jan-03 16:18:34 EST, John said
Hmm..our choices seem to be limited right? Trout Lake or Jack Lord or BC (existing). With the size of our group staying at BC with CW, HP and Lang might be too much...if we had say 45 people..we are hard pressed for food service in the BC building.

BC: Plusses: Tradition, closer to some WC events
Minuses: No indoor bathroom, 3-4 four cabins hard to manage supervise

Jack Lord: Plusses: Indoor bathroom (it would indeed be strange to attend WC and not have to "go outside" to get to/go to the bathroom!). Better Kitchen (or so I have been told)...other cabins nearby..is the main room big enough for 50?
Minuses: Far from BC (Time Capsule, CC Golf etc)

Trout Lake: Plusses: Bigger, better kitchen
Minuses: I don;t like it. :-), too exposed, not really other cabins nearby.

I really think it comes down to BC vs. JL. Hmm..maybe we could do a Hawaii Five-O theme...(if you don't get that one ask someone old). Perhaps we could have a WC pre-pre-planning meeting in the spring (before cabin rental reservations are due to decide...)

On Thursday, 02-Jan-03 00:02:57 EST, Kupser said
I would have to agree with Ethan and Steve. Our group size is getting bigger and the accomidations that we have now will at one time in the future not be able to hold us.

On Wednesday, 01-Jan-03 23:21:09 EST, ethan said
i think that jack lord, james e west, and dan beard is our best bet

On Wednesday, 01-Jan-03 23:00:19 EST, Steve D. said
I think we need to seriously look at a move. I think we did a better job on schedules this year so the cabin thing wasn't as bad (though still not perfect). The problem is that our group is getting bigger and bigger and we'll probably need 4 cabins next year if we stay at BC. (25 in BC, plus 3 12's around it - probably Lang, Clearwater, and Highpoint for 61). We could do the same at Jack Lord with only two cabins (saving a few bucks).
Jack Lord also has indoor plumbing, two different sleeping areas, an office, and a larger kitchen and dining room than Beaver Creek. James E. West shares the field and has 25 beds. The biggest problem I see is the time capsule hike, which would be considerably longer, though not much more grueling in my estimation. For the rest of the events, I think there are fields of sufficient size nearby.
The biggest problem with the multitude of cabins is providing adequate adult supervision. There were many tmes when Lang cabin wasn't visited by an adult for hours and being out of site it would be difficult to know if something stupid was happening there.

On Wednesday, 01-Jan-03 18:04:28 EST, Brad said
I would reccemond that you stay away from self-carbonating or using yeast. This is just because of the flavor of some of the pop this year. I think it was only one and most of the others were pretty good.

On Wednesday, 01-Jan-03 13:16:09 EST, Dave said
AND YOU NEVER MADE MOUNTAIN DEW???! Are you mad?

On Wednesday, 01-Jan-03 13:07:30 EST, Kupser said
With the suggestion of all the youth that complimented the Rootbeer I think that next time it will be the big kegs. Rootbeer in one but I don't know what the youth would like in the other. I can get any pop on the market so any suggestions would be welcome.

On Tuesday, 31-Dec-02 22:54:40 EST, Steve D. said
It's time to start planning. And to test this page.


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